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Old 03-12-2013, 05:25 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by fifelee View Post
I wouldn't really consider the post oring of a corny keg to be a dynamic seal. When orings are specified for dynamic seals they usually mean seals that spin 24/7 or slide repeatedly back and forth like in hydraulic cylinders. The occasional 1/2" that an oring slides in a keg post connector doesn't even register compared to most dynamic sealing. The vast majority of time a keg post oring is in a static situation. I won't worry at all about a split second of dynamic movement causing damage to a silicone keg post oring. But if one so chooses to spend time jamming a post connector on and off 24/7 for a few months then silicone is a bad idea.
Except that in those 'standard dynamic' applications you mention they are usually dealing with machined/polished surfaces, proper alignment, and in a grease bath of some sort. The corny post situation is dealing with crappy molded plastic that frequently has some non-trivial surface defects from being jammed onto 30 year old metal posts. Not to mention getting assaulted by the the locking mechanism, unless you use some king of jig to install your QDs.

Have you looked inside your QDs?
Have you looked at your O rings?
I have, and my post O-rings show significant wear, probably from a variety of things. I wouldn't want even less durability.

I don't see any of the properties of silicone being useful in this situation, and many disadvantages.
Can you offer any advantage for using silicone over Buna?
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:06 AM   #92
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Except that in those 'standard dynamic' applications you mention they are usually dealing with machined/polished surfaces, proper alignment, and in a grease bath of some sort. The corny post situation is dealing with crappy molded plastic that frequently has some non-trivial surface defects from being jammed onto 30 year old metal posts. Not to mention getting assaulted by the the locking mechanism, unless you use some king of jig to install your QDs.

Have you looked inside your QDs?
Have you looked at your O rings?
I have, and my post O-rings show significant wear, probably from a variety of things. I wouldn't want even less durability.

I don't see any of the properties of silicone being useful in this situation, and many disadvantages.
Can you offer any advantage for using silicone over Buna?
If you have ever dealt with hydraulic cylinders on farm equipment you know they are far from a fine polish surface (damn dirt and rocks). Again even with polish, alignment, and lube there is no comparison between a typical linear dynamic seal that may see 1000 two foot long cycles per day (at 1000 psi) to a keg post that sees 1/4" of travel once a month (at 15 psi).

That said, I agree the advantages of silicone aren't very strong and I to typically use buna. Silicone will form (seal) better around the defects you mention, but to me that isn't usually worth the cost because if defect are that bad I fix the defect. All I'm saying is the split second a silicone keg post oring sees dynamic movement will not cause damage on 99.9% of defects. If there is a defect so bad a 1/4" of travel will damage a silicone oring it will also damage a buna. In that case fix the defect. Your lube incompatibility of silicone is a much stronger argument then dynamic seal issues. Although a slightly swollen oring isn't always bad.

Personally the only real wear I have seen on post orings is on the kegs I got from a scrap yard. I assume those orings had years of caked on soda that caused the damage. New oring I have installed (silicone or buna) hold up just fine. Plus I think most hombrewers like me change the oring every few keg uses. If you want to keep the same oring for 10 years then I agree buna all the way. But for most homebrewers I say if you want silicone don't worry a bit about an occasional 1/4" of dynamic travel and they may even seal a bit better on an imperfect QD surface. Actually, cwi, if your QD's are really beat up, you may want to try silicone orings and just change them often or maybe get some new QDs.

Homebrewers if silicone makes you feel better buy silicone. They likely will seal slightly better on defects plus they come in a very attractive orange color. If you see damage change them. If you are worried about cost buy buna. If you see damage change them. If your QDs are so beat up they damage any oring, then get a new QD. Now can we all just relax and have a beer.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:00 AM   #93
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When I make my next McMaster-Carr order, I will try these: Silicone Oring 10mm(ID)x3mm
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Originally Posted by Floydsview View Post
Has anyone used the above silicone orings for pin-lock's?
I did finally try the 10mm (ID) x 3mm oring on my pin locks. Yes cwi I used Buna. I had to stretch them a bit more then I like, but they seem to seal very well. When placing the QD you can feel how it is a tighter fit than the #111 or #112 orings. I'll be using them from now on and will report any issues. Might even order some silicone to upset cwi.
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Old 03-14-2013, 12:14 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fifelee View Post
If you have ever dealt with hydraulic cylinders on farm equipment you know they are far from a fine polish surface (damn dirt and rocks). Again even with polish, alignment, and lube there is no comparison between a typical linear dynamic seal that may see 1000 two foot long cycles per day (at 1000 psi) to a keg post that sees 1/4" of travel once a month (at 15 psi).
The hyd cylinders I've seen don't usually use O rings on the exposed surface. They also usually leak like sieves. Maybe they should follow your advice and use silicone wipers and seals? Doubtful. The comparison of QDs to hyd cylinders or rotating seals is not valid.

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Originally Posted by fifelee View Post
That said, I agree the advantages of silicone aren't very strong and I to typically use buna.
Had you stopped there, I probably would have let all this slide.

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Originally Posted by fifelee View Post
Silicone will form (seal) better around the defects you mention, but to me that isn't usually worth the cost because if defect are that bad I fix the defect.
If the defect is bad enough to make a Buna O ring leak, it would be bad enough to shred a silicone one. Durability wins out for this type of fitting.

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Originally Posted by fifelee View Post
All I'm saying is the split second a silicone keg post oring sees dynamic movement will not cause damage on 99.9% of defects.
I don't see how the time factor (split second) is relevant, and faster is actually worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fifelee View Post
If there is a defect so bad a 1/4" of travel will damage a silicone oring it will also damage a buna.
If the defect is so small that it will not damage a silicone O ring, a Buna O ring will also seal just as well. See, I can do it, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fifelee View Post
Your lube incompatibility of silicone is a much stronger argument then dynamic seal issues. Although a slightly swollen oring isn't always bad.
Except that silicone swollen/degraded from improper lube also has drastically reduced integrity/durometer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fifelee View Post
Personally the only real wear I have seen on post orings is on the kegs I got from a scrap yard. I assume those orings had years of caked on soda that caused the damage. New oring I have installed (silicone or buna) hold up just fine. Plus I think most hombrewers like me change the oring every few keg uses. If you want to keep the same oring for 10 years then I agree buna all the way. But for most homebrewers I say if you want silicone don't worry a bit about an occasional 1/4" of dynamic travel and they may even seal a bit better on an imperfect QD surface.
You have a talent for hyperbole in making your case. Split seconds, 1/4", 10 years, etc. I just don't see it making the case for silicone. Maybe if you included direction for replacing them 20-30 times as often, taking 1000 times more care when R&Ring QDs, using new QDs every time you switch kegs, etc., then your case for silicone would be a bit stronger.

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Originally Posted by fifelee View Post
Actually, cwi, if your QD's are really beat up, you may want to try silicone orings and just change them often or maybe get some new QDs.
They will just get beat up again from the posts, and from reaching around/over things when trying to install the QDs. Also, it's more than 1/4" of travel, and the O rings do more than just seal, they also provide some support against deflection, so the correct durometer is important there as well.

I found the solution to QDs, poppets, relief valves, and all Corny issues- it's called Sankey.

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Originally Posted by fifelee View Post
Homebrewers if silicone makes you feel better buy silicone. They likely will seal slightly better on defects plus they come in a very attractive orange color. If you see damage change them. If you are worried about cost buy buna. If you see damage change them. If your QDs are so beat up they damage any oring, then get a new QD. Now can we all just relax and have a beer.
Yes, if silicone makes you feel better, buy it. Just don't go around squawking that it does anything more than impress the ladies.

As for when it's time to change out a silicone O ring, the best indicator is your empty CO2 tank.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:51 AM   #95
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cwi, when you wrote "Not to mention getting assaulted by the locking mechanism", I couldn't stop laughing as you take minor issues to such an absurd level. I thought it would be fun to mess with you, but I have better things to do then continue this silly discussion. You win. Although I have a mechanical engineering degree and spent eight years specifying orings and oring lubricants you have convinced me a seal that doesn't move 99.9999% of the time is dynamic and a minuscule amount of travel over normal minor defects will shred silicone orings. All homebrewers who use silicone orings should be subject to your public mocking.

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Old 03-20-2013, 12:08 AM   #96
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This thread has been one of the most entertaining ever! Thanks all!!! :-)

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Old 04-04-2013, 04:06 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fifelee View Post
I did finally try the 10mm (ID) x 3mm oring on my pin locks. Yes cwi I used Buna. I did have to stretch them a bit more then I like, but they seem to seal very well. When placing the QD you can feel how it is a tighter fit than the #111 or #112 orings. I'll be using them from now on and will report any issues. Might even order some silicone to upset cwi.
Thanks for the info... just for safe measure, these are the ones you used? http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/119/3478/=m6ci0r

It's nice to have a definitive answer on Pin-Lock O-Rings... I have not used my pin lock kegs in 2 years since I dumped 1/2 a keg into the bottom of my fridge!
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Old 04-04-2013, 04:14 PM   #98
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I'd also like to add an O-Ring to the list. Many of us use the Polysulfone Disconnects by CPC.


The O-rings are thin and don't generally hold up well, so for those of you who need to replace them here is that O-Ring from McMaster-Carr.
Dash - 016
ID: 5/8"
OD: 3/4"

http://www.mcmaster.com/#o-rings/=m6cnec

Hope this helps.

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Old 04-05-2013, 02:15 AM   #99
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Thanks for the info... just for safe measure, these are the ones you used? http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/119/3478/=m6ci0r

It's nice to have a definitive answer on Pin-Lock O-Rings... I have not used my pin lock kegs in 2 years since I dumped 1/2 a keg into the bottom of my fridge!
I ordered from Amazon, but the 9262k263 (3mm Wide x 10mm ID) from McMaster in your link above is what I would use.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:02 PM   #100
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Here is a poppet valve solution:
http://www.kegkits.com/Merchant2/mer...ry_Code=PVALVE

They are universal valves with replaceable o-rings.

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