Internal Calandria To Reduce Your Footprint - Page 3

**WortMonger** · 02-05-2012, 04:51 PM

Damn that dude has a sweet setup. I wonder the exacts though. I am quessing that big Siemens machine could be simplified and that he is using the equivalent to our 240V for his heating elements? It was really hard to follow, even with the translations, but... generally looks to be an insulated brew kettle, pumped through heating elements and then back on top of the kettle with the spray set to allow for less boil over problems. Of course that was very general, but I don't see it as anything more than an over-sized RIMS for a mash tun in theory. Now for more specifics on what would work element-wise, pump-wise, and control-wise and we could have us a HBT version.

**kladue** · 02-05-2012, 06:45 PM

GreenMonti had an internal version working on steam, an electric external would not be difficult but pump plumbing and element wattage/surface temperature would need to be thought out.
A conventional RIMS tube would be a bad idea as flow over the element is too slow and the surface temp of the element would be high enough to burn the sugars and proteins in the wort, as demonstrated numerous times by others. The internals of the tube would need to be reworked to get the wort flow over the element fast enough to limit surface temp to under 300 degrees, but pressure drop and pump capabilities would be a factor, definitely not an application for a March 809.
Steam from a pressure cooker is not sufficient for this application, pushing one with a larger burner is just making you a contestant for the Darwin awards as they were designed for less than 2K btu input and the relief valve will not vent fast enough to keep pressure low enough to keep it from blowing up if it is pushed with a larger burner.
The flash boiler with an output of about 10KW is about the only device able to generate the steam volume and temperature needed as demonstrated by GreenMonti in his boiling tests.

**WortMonger** · 02-05-2012, 10:37 PM

I loved GreenMonti's thread! I can't believe the pictures got removed. I have made a flash boiler and thought about using it, but was looking at electric as a first notion. The boiler I built looks like this:

I just don't know if this would be up for the task without a new pump or not. I use the March 809. Without having Monti to talk to, that only leaves you kladue

. Do you think this boiler could be utilized to boil the kettle more efficiently than a burner underneath it like now? I would wrap and insulate the boil kettle to lose less heat from the sides.

**kladue** · 02-06-2012, 01:07 AM

I believe the consensus was it was easier to direct fire the boil kettle, but steam will get the job done as GreenMonti demonstrated with the copper tubing coil. The last update he sent was the steam jacket for the boil kettle, and have not heard if it was successful. I have designed a scale model of the popular internal calandria design, but never had the heads cut for the 1/2" tubing so I could send it up to GreenMonti to build and test. I have seen a single large diameter copper tube used in an European brewery, but it was heated with high pressure steam at 350 degrees, which is easy with a flash boiler and superheating the steam generated.
If someone was determined to do the electric thing then designing a baffle system that kept the flow close to the element surface, and at high enough velocity to limit surface temp, it should work in theory. Running at boiling temperatures would mean that you would need a large inlet pipe, and enough vertical head pressure to keep the wort from flash boiling in the pump, and enough head pressure capability to handle the back pressure of the flow baffles in the RIMS tube.

Blauhung · 02-06-2012, 05:24 AM

these kinda things are normally used in industrial settings as a centralized steam supply starts being very cost effective and heat efficient at higher heating loads. Steam is also easily reused for multiple heating steps by altering steam pressure and pressure of the substance to be heated. Steam is awesome as it dumps a lot of heat at a constant and well defined temperature when it undergoes a phase change. The problem is that steam doesn't really get cost effective for boiling things at atmospheric pressure unless you start out with steam at very high temperatures and pressures. If you start at just over atm pressure, you no longer have the ability for heat reuse that makes it cost effective. Steam at high temps and pressure becomes very very dangerous to work with and requires much more in terms of safety considerations.

Edit: Steam is also frequently used in the food and beverage industry as it can be re-purposed for sanitizing and cleaning dirty processing equipment.