Induction [again]

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maztec

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I was looking at natural gas burners, when I ran across an induction burner that would definitely do a 5 gallon batch - and can even boil 10 gallons [called the manufacturer].

But, what I wanted to know is, has anyone here used it?

CookTek Stock Pot Range

And if you haven't, feel free to give it a look and your opinions anyway. The obvious problem is finding out if I have 3 phase in my home or not (I think I do, new build, and the inspector went bonkers about my electrical system as it is far above spec). And if I don't, I might be able to use a Phase Converter.

Thoughts or experiences?


- M
 
Take a picture of your electric panel. I would be surprised if you had three phase power, but hey, you never know.

Those Phase converters cannot be cheap, you would probably be better off with a 220V single phase induction cooktop.
 
$2000 for the burner, around $1500 for the converter. -- a rotary would be about $1400, a CNC would be about $2000.

220V single phase cooktops have several problems:
(1) Most top out at 2000W, some hit 2500 or 3000W, but very few, and I only know of one that can hit 3500W. [2500W is min to boil 5g w/in 30 min]
(2) None of them can take 40lbs of weight on top of them. I've written at least a dozen manufacturers, and they have all said, "No Way."
-- If someone can point me at a cooktop that would work, I'm all for it. I'd be even more excited if I could find a half gas, half induction cooktop.

-- Whereas, to go gas in the garage, to satisfy the wife, I'm going to spend about $1000 on equipment and safety setup ... Sure, it saves me some, but at that point, I may as well take one more step for a simpler setup that screams awesome ;).

Unless I can find a way to make either one cheaper. SWMBO wins in the end on whatever I do.
 
I was looking at natural gas burners, when I ran across an induction burner that would definitely do a 5 gallon batch - and can even boil 10 gallons [called the manufacturer].

But, what I wanted to know is, has anyone here used it?

CookTek Stock Pot Range

And if you haven't, feel free to give it a look and your opinions anyway. The obvious problem is finding out if I have 3 phase in my home or not (I think I do, new build, and the inspector went bonkers about my electrical system as it is far above spec). And if I don't, I might be able to use a Phase Converter.

Thoughts or experiences?


- M

Very doubtful you have 3phase in your house. 3 phase is mostly used for commercial purposes. It isn't cheap to install either.

To run an inductive load like that you need something like this. A little solid state phase converter ain't going to hack it.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000DD6V9/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I'm all for trying something new and testing conventions but for 7kW/8kW of heating power it doesn't make much sense to go inductive. You would be better off and far far cheaper to have a dedicated 50A 240V service and 2 5.5kW elements for a net of 11kW of heat output. Just as efficient if not more efficient than the induction cooker. (this is assuming you have to convert from single phase to three phase and loss of efficiency during the conversion). Would it be cool? Hell yeah! Would it be practical? God no.

For what you will spend on that converter alone you can install a dedicated 240V service and build a REAL nice brew rig.
 
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I love my induction cookers! At ~1500 watts they don't have the oompf to do my boil, but they work great for the mash tun and HLT. Step mashes are a breeze. I've pushed mine to the weight limit for a 10 gal batch of my IPA (~18lbs grain + 4 gal. water). This was actually too much as the top was being pushed down into the fan. Luckily my pot is wider than the cooker so I was able to rig up some wood blocks on the sides to take a bunch of weight off of the cook top. You could do the same thing. The pot doesn't need to rest firmly on the top, just be close enough.
 
Except 2x 5.5kW elements wouldn't give a net 11kW heat output because it is unlikely one pan would span both efficiently. Unless you are meaning drop elements directly in the cooker that heat - rather than induction. At which point, you possibly have better efficiency than induction, at the risk of putting contaminants straight into your wort.

Meh, if I was in the EU, I know I would have 3 Phase in my house.

And 7kW = 23.8k BTU. [I did all the math and explained it in the forum a year ago].

----

pjj: good to hear. By my math, 1500W is just enough to boil 4 gallons in one hour (except heat loss will make it not happen). You could definitely boil 2 gallons within 20-30 minutes though.

Whereas, for 5 gallons in an hour, you need 100% efficiency for 1747W. Thus 3500W minimum for a boil in 30 minutes.

-- The good news here is new induction products keep coming out, keep being more powerful, and keep getting cheaper!


Maybe I should just make a steel pot, turn it into a stand, and wrap it with an induction coil :p.
 
Good point.

What about making an induction coil instead?

Get two kettles, two sizes. Outer one aluminum, inner one conductive stainless steel. Wrap the inner one with an induction coil, drop into the outer one (mostly as a way of keeping it all together), fill it with insulating foam. Fill it up, flip it on. Could then adjust current in order to set temperature. Could even drop a custom temperature sensor into the inside of the pot in order to monitor and maintain temperature.
 
-- If someone can point me at a cooktop that would work, I'm all for it. I'd be even more excited if I could find a half gas, half induction cooktop

Wolf can take the weight. I brew 5 gallons on my wolf gas range top.
you do need the dual burner tho'. At $5-Gees a pop it's a tad excessive.

But if it's a super duty stove that you lust after get a commercial Garland (the older the better) at a restaurant supply shop that deals in used equipment.
 
Isn't three phase usually 208v? I remember putting in 3 phase lights in a warehouse. I had never seen it up to that point. Only ever came across 1 resdidential home that had it. It was $27 million place I maintained a computer rack in. He had a 3 phase panel and full line condition system to clean the power to his home theatre equipment room. Our server rack was running off the conditioned circuits. That place was nuts.
 
Isn't three phase usually 208v? I remember putting in 3 phase lights in a warehouse. I had never seen it up to that point. Only ever came across 1 resdidential home that had it. It was $27 million place I maintained a computer rack in. He had a 3 phase panel and full line condition system to clean the power to his home theatre equipment room. Our server rack was running off the conditioned circuits. That place was nuts.

sounds like a 240V 3 ph system with a high leg delta. A neutral is tapped between two of the legs, say L1 and L2. The Lighting was then wired from L1 or L2 to N, giving 208V.

Another common 3ph is 480V. I've worked with 2.4kV 3ph so pick your poison ;)
 
Cliff: I want the induction for numerous reasons, not just brewing, but I also have a nice collection of copper pans that I would like to have a set of low/medium power gas hobs for. That is, most of the induction burners I have talked with cannot take the weight. Gas, no problem. And, either way, it doesn't get around the fact that my existing stovetop only has a 15" clearance above it.

I just checked my panel. Correct, it is 2 phase. But my neighbor has 3 phase! Bah. :(

Too bad it's the drop that costs so much. Otherwise I would be set - electrician buddies who like brew are awesome.
 
Cliff: I want the induction for numerous reasons, not just brewing, but I also have a nice collection of copper pans that I would like to have a set of low/medium power gas hobs for.

Ohhh copper - - pretty. I'm jealous. Will copper heat up on induction?
I really like my wolf. It's is easily the best stove top I've had. I've had Jenn Aire and kitchen Aid and Thermadore and this one is head and shoulders above the others. The "sealed burner" model is not as robust.

That is, most of the induction burners I have talked with cannot take the weight.
You may have to go commercial anyway just to get the power
I was happily looking into single station commercial induction units. They are pretty pricey.

doesn't get around the fact that my existing stovetop only has a 15" clearance above it.
Seems like a good reason toe raise the roof?
Talk to the spouse about a kitchen remodel.
They are suckers for that sort of thing. It might go about like the dialog about whether she wants a diamond tennis bracelet.
"Oh honey would you like a diamond tennis bracelet?"


Too bad it's the drop that costs so much. Otherwise I would be set - electrician buddies who like brew are awesome.

Have you considered having a party? Elelekrtrekal stuff before the kegs are popped of course.
 
Ohhh copper - - pretty. I'm jealous. Will copper heat up on induction?
I really like my wolf. It's is easily the best stove top I've had. I've had Jenn Aire and kitchen Aid and Thermadore and this one is head and shoulders above the others. The "sealed burner" model is not as robust.

Copper does not heat up with induction. That is why, if I replace my existing cook surface, I want to get a unit with both. I am attracted to induction for environmental - not monetary - reasons. At the same time, I do want to limit costs to within reason.

Jenn Aire used to be an excellent brand, but since they were bought out they have gone completely to pot. My new stove is GE, which is surprisingly good, but the fact that all four hobs are the same size and not big enough to boil anything ... argh! Add in the 15 inch clearance above the stove, and I begin to suspect whoever installed it has never cooked anything except in a microwave.

You may have to go commercial anyway just to get the power
I was happily looking into single station commercial induction units. They are pretty pricey.

Good point. Except almost everything that is commercial is tri-phase, which gets back to the discussion earlier. And, while I do have a neighbor with tri-phase, their places is a stand alone house, whereas mine is a townhouse. It seems unlikely I will be able to change easily to tri-phase as a result.

Seems like a good reason toe raise the roof?
Talk to the spouse about a kitchen remodel.

On the list! :) Course, just bought the house, had to do the floors first, which means spare cash is a limited resource. But, damnit, I don't want to give up my brewing for a year or more while trying to get enough cash together to start again! Yet, I don't want to drop $1000 for a bandaid.

They are suckers for that sort of thing. It might go about like the dialog about whether she wants a diamond tennis bracelet.
"Oh honey would you like a diamond tennis bracelet?"

I, fortunately, or perhaps unfortunately, married a woman who looks at diamond tennis bracelets as worthless bling.


Have you considered having a party? Elelekrtrekal stuff before the kegs are popped of course.

Yup! I'm fairly certain I can get my cousins over who will do electrical in exchange for a few batches of beer. The problem is buying the kit beforehand so as to justify the install cost ;).
 
Just did a double check on Wolf's induction cooktops. First, they only provide dual fuel for infrared/gas, not gas/induction (I have seen that in Europe, but never in the U.S.) Second, the max is 3kW, and can "boost" up to 4kW ... I never trust a "Boost" to actually mean anything. Then again, it definitely costs a premium. Wish it was possible to buy straight from the people that make the innards.
 
Okay, while I am being silly.

This page reminded me of something:
http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/indheat.html

Does anyone look at that big copper tube and think, "counter flow chiller"? I wonder if I could build a CFC/Induction Heater. Of course, that does mean getting a new electric kit ... but would definitely cost me less!
 
Ooh wait, I could make a small induction coil around a steel tube, heat the water to boiling as I pour it in, and then need minimal heat to maintain a boil.

Too much thinking, not enough EE degree.
 
What about making an induction coil instead?

Get two kettles, two sizes. Outer one aluminum, inner one conductive stainless steel. Wrap the inner one with an induction coil, drop into the outer one (mostly as a way of keeping it all together), fill it with insulating foam. Fill it up, flip it on. Could then adjust current in order to set temperature. Could even drop a custom temperature sensor into the inside of the pot in order to monitor and maintain temperature.
I was wondering about this type of thinking about induction heating as well and came across this thread in my research. I was hoping to see someone answer maztec's post I just quoted, but no one touched on it. So I started thinking after seeing a induction smelter and thought, "hey, boiling wort this way would rock." :rockin:

The only difference in what I was wondering from what maztec asked was, what about using a high-iron sheet metal wrapped around the outside of the keggle. Then your induction coil wrapped around that (touching it or not touching it... I don't know), encased in some type of insulation to keep in the heat from the kettle. I suppose the idea he had about the temperature controller would be what I would like as well. Would this work? Would this require higher than standard 120V (I assume it would take 240V)? You electric guys are needed to get my head wrapped around this, please.

His idea later in the thread is curious to me as well. How fast would a "iron-clad" copper coil/tubing heat water or wort going through it? So many questions brought up from my brain after reading this thread. Hope you guys can help me put this to rest, or help me to see what it would take to make it possible.
 
WortMonger:

I haven't abandoned the idea totally. However, I finally did the math and identified the main problem with heating anything this way. That is, the flow rate of your water is going to be very low. The only way to be more efficient with this is to heat the tubes resistively with a low voltage transformer, which is essentially a cored induction heater.

The biggest problem here is the math. The electrical power requirement is insane.
4.1855 J/g/K (specific heat of water) * 1 g/cm^2 (density of water) * 5 GPM * 44K (temperature rise in Celsius or Kelvin) = 58,094 watts. Typical U.S. home service has 24kW, nowhere near 58kW. If you were use the entirety of your home service, you would max out at 3 GPM. And roughly 1GPM if you went with the low end. On the other hand, this means that you could probably boil a 5G kettle in 5 minutes, which is pretty damn good. Except in doing so you will blow almost all of the oxygen out of the water due to heating it so fast.

The more efficient way would be to set this up as some type of heat pump, but that carries with it its own problems.

This doesn't mean it isn't doable, it just means that it would take a hell of a lot more math and work. If someone with more EE experience than me is interested in trying to figure this out, I am all for helping out and spinning ideas around. Otherwise, it'll be some time (as a lot of my ideas end up being) before I get my hands on it.

By the way, love the look of your fermentation system, I'll have to check it out more - great use of space.


- M
 
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/anyone-heard-using-induction-heating-brewing-172228/

Here's a post on the subject in which I mention my research into the subject. I was interested in going with induction but eventually went with LD water heating elements.

Basically, watch out for an 'auto-pot-sizing' chip in many of the modern units that may trip up if you are using a bigger pot than max (which is ~12-14" in diameter.... not big enough).

Unless you want to get the $2600 Cooktek commercial stockpot boiler..... I'd be doing 5 gal batches max on an induction. Anyhoo, more info in my post. :)
 
OK, thanks for the response, but... didn't really answer the specifics of my first question so here goes again.

[?]If you were to wrap a keggle with a high-iron content metal sheeting, then your induction coil, then all that in insulation and possibly a outside protective something or other... would that work? Would it work on 120V or would it have to be 240V? I ask because I have seen the same thing, without the higher-iron sheeting, melting metals on youtube. If the crucible (ie my keggle in my case) can get hot enough through induction to melt metals, then why would this not work for wort (especially with a temperature controller)?[/?]

I get your drift on the induction heating inline, and I agree it would be way to much energy required. That idea was really just an add on to the bigger wonder in my mind about the keggle. Hope you guys can shed some light on this for me.
 
If there was any air space between your keggle and the metal sheeting, it would turn to slag (depending on the metal). Take a balloon, fill it with water, hold a match under it, it doesn't break, because the water absorbs the heat. Take a balloon, fill it with a few drops of water, hold a match under it, it'll pop as soon as it finds space, because air allows the plastic to heat. Same issue will happen here.

Furthermore, you would lose a lot of heat outward - even with insulation. That would ultimately melt your coil.

That isn't to say it wouldn't work or be possible, it's just a note of precaution.

With 5 gallons, the fastest you are going to get it to boil in is 5 minutes on a home power supply. Which honestly is really good. However, by doing a heating element insert, you can achieve the same boil in 7 minutes and use a lot less power due to the direct heat transfer (rather than losing 20-30%).

The gallons per minute in the calculations I shared above are not restricted to a flow rate, it is the max you can heat in any manner with 100% efficiency (which you won't have).

That help? What clarification would you like?
 
Perfect info there :). That helps me to think a little more. I am curious though how I would be losing heat through the insulation? I'm thinking in terms of the refractory used in the smelters I mentioned. The sheeting issue (turning to slag) kind of makes sense to me, but I am curious how it would turn to slag... based again on the fact that the same material is used as crucibles in some cases for the smelters I keep references. If the "cut-off gas bottle crucible" or the "stainless mixer crucible" they use can melt aluminum/brass/bronze/copper then why would the air gap you mentioned not melt these? I'm just hashing this out to convince my brain. I do think the elements inside the pot make a lot more sense from a 120V standpoint. Thanks for helping me talk to my brain. LOL
 
I would be more worried about the induction coil turning to slag. It needs to be near the surface of the iron to work. One solution to that is to run water through the coils to keep them cool, which may work. You probably wouldn't end up slagging the iron on a home circuit over that much area. The other thing to worry about is insulating the electricity running through the unit so you don't end up with ELECTRO-WORT!
 
I thought the coils were made from copper? I thought earlier you were talking about the sheeting turning to slag, lol. Also, all the smelters I have seen have a significant amount of space between the coil and the crucible. I thought the magnetic field from the coil creates heat in the crucibles from moving its electrons via the field, or "in the case of ferric metals" heats them up inside even solid carbon crucibles. I am having trouble understanding the difference from melting metals to boiling wort. I am sure about the fact "in the wort's case" that you would only be heating the SS keggle or this jacket sheeting and the keggle. I do know from reading, even in this thread, that the keggle isn't going to do much on its own so that's where the sheeting ideas are coming from.
 
The electromagnetic effect falls off exponentially the further the coil is from the metal to be heated. In the case of a large wrap, you want it as close as possible.

I did the math to calculate the energy to melt the metal with the lowest melting point in the system. In the time to boil one gallon of water, it would take 94kW to melt a similar volume of aluminum. Your residential power supply isn't going to be able to put that out, so you are probably safe. I assumed 1 gallon of aluminum is what you are going to melt, based on the fact that aluminum is decent at distributing heat and would hopefully be cooled by the water. However, if it was thin walled, on its own, and not redistributing the heat, or had impurities had was highly resistive to distributing the heat, you could melt it with as little as 9kW... at which point you could have a serious problem. Of course, your metals are probably alloys, rather than pure, so there is a lot of variance for melting point, slag point, and so on.

However, if there are any impurities in any of the metals (which is why I used the term slag), you may have some burn off.

I have two worries with any induction system: 1) electricity, 2) distribution of heat. First, you are running electricity through your coil. You will have to insulate it. If it is not completely insulated and it comes in contact with your pot - you will die if you ground it out - whether via a hand in the water or the keggle itself. The insulation will have to be able to take the heat. However, the electromagnetic force of your coil reduces exponentially with distance, so you need to keep it fairly close to what you are trying to heat. Second, a coil will heat things inside and outside of it. If you are wearing a watch, have sensitive electronics, or have a wedding ring with any content that is magnetic, it could heat up. Furthermore, if there are any air gaps between what you are heating and the water it contacts, it will heat up quickly and increase the chance of fire, burns, slag, and other problems. Slag is a problem if there are any impurities in the metal. Those impurities could burn or melt off.

Furthermore, the diameter of the coil is going to change everything also.

This doesn't mean it cannot be done. It means you are going to have to look at existing designs and work from there.

If I was going to go the route you are suggesting (which I have considered in the past), I would go with a stainless steel keggle that has a high iron content. The only way to test that would be to take a magnet with you and see if it sticks. If it sticks solidly, you are in business.

By putting the keg in the center, you are building a coreless induction furance. You would have to have heavy duty, high conductivity copper tubing wound into a helical coil. That coil would have to be wrapped in a steel shell (double walled stainless steel keggle would be great for this, as you could put it between both walls of the keggle). On the outside of the coil, you would have to put magnetic shielding to prevent heating of the supporting shell and to protect anything outside from being heated or experiencing electromagnetic interference. You would then have to pump a coolant through the coil to keep the electrical resistance down and to keep it from melting. Most likely coolant would be water. If you wanted to be efficient, you could use either water going into a reservoir for cleaning (that would be a ton of water in the end), or water going into a cooling tower (radiator) that releases the heat and comes back in. I would consider doing it as two steps, the first step would be circulating the wort through to use the outside heat to heat it up, then once it hits a set temperature I would run water in to clear the line and then circulate water through a radiator to cool the unit. The nice thing here is once you turn off the coil, you can keep the water running and use that as your wort chiller.

Now, you are going to have a problem if you ever fill the keggle with less liquid than the max height of the coil, because the metal not touching the water is going to get super hot.

Of course, this is just the coil! Now you have to build the array for increasing the frequency, maximizing the timing to voltage ratio, settling your curves so they're squared off, and keeping the capacitor unit cooled.

This system would be very bad ass, especially if you could set it up to run on a 120. However, it would be significantly easier if you had a 240 or 480 tri-phase or quad-phase power supply lying around to be used.

And that is why using a cored induction coil in a heat pump system would likely be easier, not to mention it would definitely be more efficient.


That help?
 
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