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Old 10-18-2007, 02:40 PM   #1
kvh
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Default Idea for Chiller and DMS concern

So because of space constraints, I have to keep a very small 'brew-house'. No brew stands, no 3-tier keggles, just the basics. And, for what it's worth, I can successfully brew 5G AG batches on my *ELECTRIC* kitchen stove. I haven't attempted any big beers yet, but in the winter when my apartment is freezing, I wouldn't mind running some all day boils.

However, that's not my question. My question is this. I intend to set up a dual-boil, two 5G kettles each with spigots. I would prefer to speed my chilling time up, as using an immersion chiller with ice-water takes longer than I care to wait for. I would like to use something akin to a CFC, but without the CF part. If possible, I want to run my hot wort through a coil of copper that's immersed in a bucket of ice-water. The way I see it, I can adjust the temperature by changing the amount of copper tubing that's submerged (much like you can adjust the water flow on a CFC to change your temp.) My concern is this:

Everyone I've mentioned things like this to have said: 'WATCH OUT FOR DIMETHYL SUFLIDE! THIS IS A SURE FIRE WAY TO CREATE OFF FLAVORS!!'. But, isn't this essentially what the big boys do in their brew-houses? They have a glycol chiller they run their hot wort through, then straight to the fermentor, right?

So, what gives? Who's right on this one??

Thx guys.

kvh

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Old 10-19-2007, 03:35 PM   #2
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My understanding is that you can't cool it too fast. Part of the trick to getting clear beer is rapid cooling.

Dimethyl Sulfide? I've never heard that this could be a problem from rapid cooling. Anyone else heard of this?

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Old 10-19-2007, 06:56 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kvh
Everyone I've mentioned things like this to have said: 'WATCH OUT FOR DIMETHYL SUFLIDE! THIS IS A SURE FIRE WAY TO CREATE OFF FLAVORS!!'. But, isn't this essentially what the big boys do in their brew-houses? They have a glycol chiller they run their hot wort through, then straight to the fermentor, right?
Who ever is telling you this doesn't know what they are talking about. I've never heard of this nor read of this on any of the forums or books/magazines I've read. Search this forum for threads on chillers and you'll see that the consensus is that the faster, more efficient you can cool your wort, the better.
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Old 10-19-2007, 07:03 PM   #4
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That's really good to hear. I... I have many steps to go through until I hit this point, but I'm glad I can plan for it now..

thx

kvh

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Old 10-19-2007, 07:13 PM   #5
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DMS is produced by hot wort, like above 140*, but is driven off by boiling.

When you stop boiling, DMS is still being produced but it is not being driven off.

This is why you want to cool your wort quickly from boiling to something under 140*, to minimize the amount of DMS that builds up.

You want to continue cooling quickly to pitching temp in order to minimize the chance that the wort will get infected.

All in all, the faster you can cool to pitching temp the better.

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Old 10-20-2007, 09:00 AM   #6
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I know of a guy that uses a bottling bucket and has essentially the coils from a IC immersed in a ice bath thet the wort flows through. The spigot on the bottom of the bucket allows him to drain off water to create room for ice as it melts. He said it works great and has no plans to ever change it.

FWIW, if you were to go this route, try adding some salt (rock salt is best) to the water bath. Basically salt water has a lower freezing point than regular water and the salt gives it a larger heat removing capacity... Mythbusters confirmed this when they lower a 6-pack temp from room temp to drinking temp in just over 5 minutes

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Old 10-20-2007, 11:40 AM   #7
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I would imagine when someone is suggesting that DMS might be an issue when switching from an IC to a CFC (or similar), they are referring to production of DMS in the wort that is waiting to pass through the chiller.

As an example, assuming it takes 20 mins to cool 5 gals of wort to pitching temperature using a CFC, although it might take 30 mins with an IC, it will probably cool all of the wort in the kettle to below the point where DMS is no longer an issue a fair bit quicker. (anyone who has used a IC will know that the initial cooling is very quick, it's getting it to pitching temperature that takes the time).

To over come the problems with a CFC, some people choose to recirculate the cool wort from the outlet back to the boiler so the temperature of the wort in the boiler drops to below 140 quicker than it would normally. Once it's below 140 there's no need to recirc'.

Just a thought anyway.

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Old 10-20-2007, 04:20 PM   #8
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DAAB is exactly right and probably why you've mistakenly attributed DMS production to chilling. Think of 140-205F as a DMS production danger zone. You either want to stay above it or get below it but not hang out in the range too long.

If you coolant water is cold enough such that you can run your wort through at full bore using a pump, you can usually run 10g through in less than 15 minutes. No big deal. It's when you have to slow the flow due to higher coolant temps that you'd worry. That's when I recirculate back into the kettle which gets all the wort down under 140F in less than 10 minutes. Another alternative is to continue the boil as you drain the first half through the CFC. This keeps DMS being driven off.

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Old 10-20-2007, 07:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M
you can usually run 10g through in less than 15 minutes.
Wow, that's fast. Do you have any hop filter for you wort? It usually takes me 20-30 min to drain 10g through CFC with valve completely open. But sure I have hop stopper installed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M
...Another alternative is to continue the boil as you drain the first half through the CFC. This keeps DMS being driven off.
One problem with this approach is that is that while keep boiling you still drive away your hops aroma and create bittering iso-acids. I think it's really hard to quantify this process but I see it can be done by practicing and adjusting your hops time/volumes.

I use my old small IC to chill whole wort after boil to 130F and then use CFC to cool it down on it's way to fermenter.
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Old 10-20-2007, 10:38 PM   #10
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I knew I wasn't crazy.. slightly misinformed perhaps, but not crazy.

Thanks guys. I think I have some things figured out... I just need to assemble the equipment now.

Conceivably, if my chiller worked quickly enough, I could chill a gallon or so and then dump it back into the brew kettles on the hot wort, dropping its temp below the danger zone (effectively recirculating it, but without the pump)...

That's the plan for now. I'll keep you all updated.

thx again!

kvh

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Make beer, not bombs.
(...and not bottle bombs either.)
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Primary Fermentor -

Secondary - Mystery IPA
Secondary -
Bottle Conditioning -
Keg Conditioning -

Draft: - Apfelwein, Belgian-style Dubbel w/ Grains of Paradise
Bottles:(and still in stock): FIRST AG - (I)IPA 4.1.07, PK's Warm Spring Marzen, Summer Cerveza -BANG, PK's Winter Spice II, Espresso Stout, Indiana Pale Ale, PK's Chocolate Bitter II, Porterfield Porter, and New Year's 2006 remnants.

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