Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Equipment/Sanitation > Counterflow - What could we possibly be doing wrong?
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 07-22-2012, 01:39 AM   #1
jwbeard
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 100
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default Counterflow - What could we possibly be doing wrong?

So we bought an all-copper convoluted CFC from Midwest Brewing Supplies, and are getting dreadful performance from it. Even at a trickle from the kettle, with the valve barely open, we're hard-pressed to get 72 degrees (much less the low 60s that all the CFC threads seem to report). Hose is on full, and the runoff feels cold (implying incomplete thermal transfer). Turning down the hose raises the temperature, turning up the wort does too (I thought maybe it was flowing too slowly to properly take advantage of the convolution).

Hose-in is connected at the bottom of the CFC next to the wort-out; hose-out is at the top next to the wort-in.

Today we even put my old immersion cooler inline into a bucket of ice with the runoff going to the CFC. It got us another degree or two but no appreciable increase...

I'm worried about DMS, since it's taking 90 minutes to empty a 10 gallon batch (ridiculous).

image-2388341762.jpg

Flow rate is deceptive above... Looks like its actually doing something interesting. It's not.

Please, tell me I'm being an idiot and am missing something obvious... This is ridiculous.

__________________
jwbeard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2012, 02:06 AM   #2
Yooper
Ale's What Cures You!
HBT_ADMIN.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Yooper's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 61,014
Liked 4449 Times on 3239 Posts
Likes Given: 866

Default

I'm surprised with a prechiller that it didn't cool fast. What is your tap water temperature (right out of the tap)?

Edit- I misunderstood and you don't have a prechiller. If you ground water is warm at this time of year, a prechiller is a good idea. That would be your IC in a bucket of ice water for your tap water before it hits the CFC.

__________________
Broken Leg Brewery
Giving beer a leg to stand on since 2006
Yooper is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2012, 02:10 AM   #3
bucfanmike
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
bucfanmike's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Duluth
Posts: 1,013
Liked 21 Times on 20 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

are you running the water and wort in opposite directions? If you are running them in the same direction you wont see much cooling, just like you are describing

__________________

Mike in Duluth

Currently on Tap
1. Hefeweizen
2. BM Centennial Blonde
3. LHMS Clone

Pipeline
Next on Tap-Denny Conn Rye IPA
Kegged and aging Ed Worts Apfelwine, Denny Conn BVIP
Fermenters -

bucfanmike is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2012, 02:12 AM   #4
bucfanmike
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
bucfanmike's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Duluth
Posts: 1,013
Liked 21 Times on 20 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

i see the way you have it standing up, water out is at the bottom, if that is also where you have the wort exiting it wont work.

__________________

Mike in Duluth

Currently on Tap
1. Hefeweizen
2. BM Centennial Blonde
3. LHMS Clone

Pipeline
Next on Tap-Denny Conn Rye IPA
Kegged and aging Ed Worts Apfelwine, Denny Conn BVIP
Fermenters -

bucfanmike is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2012, 02:14 AM   #5
airving
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Houston
Posts: 98
Liked 9 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

I'll ask the easy question: What's your water temp? The farther below your target temp it is, the quicker it will be to cool. I recently had mine going full speed (water from hose wide open and kettle through pump through CFC back to kettle) and got from boiling to ~160 in 25 minutes. But my water isn't very cold...

__________________
airving is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2012, 02:21 AM   #6
jwbeard
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 100
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

The wort goes in the top and out the bottom; the hose water goes in the bottom and exits the top. Current water temp is 60...

And yes, there's a pre chiller- hose goes to IM, which was in a bucket of ice; then from the IM to the CFC.

__________________
jwbeard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2012, 02:41 AM   #7
Golddiggie
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
Golddiggie's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Between here and there, and everywhere
Posts: 12,058
Liked 477 Times on 420 Posts
Likes Given: 266

Default

If you have a pump, you could run the wort through the chiller, back into the kettle (at full speed) to do a recirculation chill. Do that until it gets closer to your target temperature, and then run it one last time through the CFC into primary.

I do this with my plate chiller. I can get 7 gallons to pitching temperature, in the middle of summer, in about 10-15 minutes. That's with a smaller diameter hose feeding the chill water to the plate chiller (I'll be getting some 3/4" ID hose before I use it again). I do the recirculation for 5-8 minutes (depends on the season, and ground water temperatures) and then switch over to running into primary. I then use gravity to feed the chiller, with occasional hits from the pump. The gravity feed method does extend the chill time a bit, but it's better in the warmer months here. During the cooler/colder months, my chill time is about half of what it is in the summer.

BTW, what's the ID of the water hose you're using??

__________________
Hopping Tango Brewery

跟猴子比丟屎 ・ Gun HOE-tze bee DIO-se

On Tap: Caramel Ale, Mocha Porter II, MO SMaSH IPA
Waiting/Carbonating: 12.5% Wee Honey II, 8.9% Old Ale, English Brown Ale, Lickah ESB, Mocha Porter II
Fermenting
K1:
K2: Epic mead
K3: TripSix
On Deck: Caramel Ale
Aging:mead
Mead [bottled]:Oaked Wildflower Traditional, Mocha Madness, Blackberry Melomel, maple wine
Golddiggie is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2012, 02:42 AM   #8
Ryush806
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Ryush806's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 774
Liked 87 Times on 62 Posts
Likes Given: 21

Default

This may sound like a stupid question....have you tried collecting any of the wort after it's been chilled and used a thermometer to check the temp? The reason I ask is because it's possible at that flow rate that the actually thermometer side of your thrumometer (is that what it's called?) is not actually being touched by the wort. It could be that it's just measuring the air getting up into the device.

I prefer to use a valve after the thermometer to control flow instead of at the kettle because that way it ensures that the CFC and thermometer stay 100% full. This way you get an accurate temp reading and use all of your available heat transfer surface area to cool your wort.

__________________

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
- Benjamin Franklin (and I don't care if this quote has been largely discredited/misquoted...I like it!)

Beer, if drank with moderation, softens the temper, cheers the spirit and promotes health.
- Thomas Jefferson

Ryush806 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2012, 03:00 AM   #9
jwbeard
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 100
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golddiggie
If you have a pump, you could run the wort through the chiller, back into the kettle (at full speed) to do a recirculation chill. Do that until it gets closer to your target temperature, and then run it one last time through the CFC into primary.
Pump is one of the next purchases. CFC and mash tun put a dent in the available funds...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golddiggie
BTW, what's the ID of the water hose you're using??
3/8" lining for the hose-in, I believe. It's from the tubing I had connected to my IM, which is 3/8 OD copper.
__________________
jwbeard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2012, 03:02 AM   #10
jwbeard
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 100
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryush806
This may sound like a stupid question....have you tried collecting any of the wort after it's been chilled and used a thermometer to check the temp? The reason I ask is because it's possible at that flow rate that the actually thermometer side of your thrumometer (is that what it's called?) is not actually being touched by the wort. It could be that it's just measuring the air getting up into the device.
Not a stupid question at all - its actually a bit hotter, so you're probably correct about the measurement issue. The collected wort measured at 76 degrees in the carboy using the thermometer attached to the outside.
__________________
jwbeard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools