Copper Damage from Oxyclean

Well, I have heard a hundred times that Oxyclean will damage copper. I want to see the proof. I prefer photos.

This topic has been tossed about, with a lot of people claiming that Oxy is really bad for copper. So what do I do? I use Oxyclean in my BK and let some copper tubing sit in the hot (150F) Oxy solution for about 45 minutes to simulate a typical wash cycle on my HERMS.

Guess what, it looks exactly the same as it did when it went in, my kettle looked A LOT cleaner though.

SO what gives? Is it REALLY bad for copper, or are people just repeating false information that they have heard, and passing it off as fact?

Thanks for the thread. I'm curious too.

And, I'd add, if it *is* bad for copper, what commercially widely available cleaner would you use on copper? I need to find something strong to clean some copper and don't want to be ordering heavy powders over the internet with expensive shipping to Croatia. I'll bet I can find something chemically the same as OxyClean though, so was going to look at that.

FWIW, I am leaving today for a 5 day campping trip...

I just put a length of copper tubing in a gallon jug of OxyClean mixed at a ratio of .3oz/gallon (the same I used to clean my BK and my fermentor) and I am going to leave it there for 5 days. Took photos of it PRE-soak and will take pictures of it POST soak when I return on Friday.

Maybe, if there is a problem, it is with LONG term soaking. As I said, 45 minutes in my BK at 150+F didnt do a darn thing to the copper tubing...

If it doenst eat holes in this stuff after 5 days, some people will have a lot of splaining to do about what they "know" about this cleaner

Cool. Thanks for the experiment. Curious to see the outcome. And enjoy the camping! I'm at the sea myself, but it's raining today so I'm here working.

MattHollingsworth said:

Cool. Thanks for the experiment. Curious to see the outcome. And enjoy the camping! I'm at the sea myself, but it's raining today so I'm here working.

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This is our annual family camp excursion, every year to a different area. I have not been to work in about three weeks, one more week is all I need I have three weeks of vacation coming up next month as well... it is getting harder and harder to get motivated to go to work!

Six years of oxyclean use and no copper damage here. I'm still using the same homemade chiller. I once left oxyclean solution in my keggle with the chiller for a few days, both had a residue (kind of sand like) that had to be scrubbed off with a sponge but no damage to either one.

ahansler said:

Six years of oxyclean use and no copper damage here. I'm still using the same homemade chiller. I once left oxyclean solution in my keggle with the chiller for a few days, both had a residue (kind of sand like) that had to be scrubbed off with a sponge but no damage to either one.

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Thanks for contributing... that is nice to know and I will post my results from my 5 day Oxy soak on this copper tubing. A lot of people are talking about Oxy damage, I am just wondering if they have any idea what they are talking about.

I've never had issues with oxyclean hurting copper, but I have seen those who have claimed to have issues. I did turn a copper chiller green with star-san one time when it was in a bucket that had a little star-san solution at the bottom, a month later when I checked it it was very green, but cleaned off OK.

Conpewter, thanks. I will have some before and after photos... like I said, the 45 minute hot soak didnt do anything and thus far the copper in my test solution has not changed in the very least. 5 days will tell.

If the copper damage theory is selling point of PBW, then I want to see if it is even valid, because I have not seen the damage... and I have heard others say that they have not. I also could not find a single thing on the interweb about copper damage from Oxy.

I've been soaking my wort chiller in Oxyclean for WEEKS. Hell, probably months. I just keep forgetting about it, I wanted to clean it up so I can re-solder some bits. If I remember (*if*), I'll take a look and see if I've ****ed it up yet. When I last looked, it was just shiny

(and if I *do* **** it up, that just means I get to buy a pump for my CFC...)

the_bird said:

I've been soaking my wort chiller in Oxyclean for WEEKS. Hell, probably months. I just keep forgetting about it, I wanted to clean it up so I can re-solder some bits. If I remember (*if*), I'll take a look and see if I've ****ed it up yet. When I last looked, it was just shiny

(and if I *do* **** it up, that just means I get to buy a pump for my CFC...)

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Thanks Bird, maybe you have run my test for me If this is the case, I will have to go baack and ask all of the naysayers exactly what experience they have with Oxy and copper. My guess is probably none.

Me too. I soak my IC while my keggle is soaking. All the SUN does is make it clean. Is that wrong?

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

Me too. I soak my IC while my keggle is soaking. All the SUN does is make it clean. Is that wrong?

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Maybe?? Dunno what damage they are claiming

So, what's the chemical makeup of Oxyclean?

From this thread here, HairyDogBrewing says:

Oxiclean is sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate.

Is this true? Here in Croatia, I will have to search based on the chemicals as I'd guess that maybe that specific brand isn't here. Guess there might be some cleaners with some derivative of the word oxygen in the name.

The_Pol I've always enjoyed your threads/experiments, My earlier post was half comment half tagging the thread for updates in 5 days

conpewter said:

The_Pol I've always enjoyed your threads/experiments, My earlier post was half comment half tagging the thread for updates in 5 days

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Wow, nice compliment. I am trying to STOP the perpetuating of bad information being passed off as fact.

OxyClean, even the SUN brand, is Sodium Percarbonate and Soduim Carbonate.

The Pol said:

Wow, nice compliment. I am trying to STOP the perpetuating of bad information being passed off as fact.

OxyClean, even the SUN brand, is Sodium Percarbonate and Soduim Carbonate.

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Ready for another compliment? Aside from my own already established faith in SUN, the only reason I am contributing to your recent OC threads is that I have utmost faith in your methods. Whether it be rig builds, sanitation, whatever. We can trust your analytical method in the technical side of things. For all I know, your beer might taste like crap! But I certainly DO trust your scientific method.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

Ready for another compliment? Aside from my own already established faith in SUN, the only reason I am contributing to your recent OC threads is that I have utmost faith in your methods. Whether it be rig builds, sanitation, whatever. We can trust your analytical method in the technical side of things. For all I know, your beer might taste like crap! But I certainly DO trust your scientific method.

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Well, yeah my beer is CRAP!

But I appreciate the confidence in what I do contribute here. This is a hobby yes, but we all take it pretty seriously and I really dont like newcomers being bombarded and brain washed with antiquated and false information from people that have no practical experience with it.

Well unfortunately I have to rain on your parade.
I was letting my Copper IC soak in some oxiclean for a week and I used to have these nice sticky hop leafs on there that I was saving batch to batch. (HJops are expensive). The oxiclean stripped them right off the copper leaving a shiny/ also metallic surface behind under where my once "seasoned" layer had been.


Subscribed. I've always just used Oxiclean because it appears to work fine and is cheap. It'll be nice to see proof that the expensive stuff is useless.

Unfortunately people spit off false info that they've heard mostly to not look bad when they have already spent too much on an unecsarry alternative.

For cleaning copper, why not just use vinegar?

When my IC gets too grungy, I put five gallons of water and a cup of white vinegar in my keggle, add the IC and bring the water to a quick boil. Cut the heat and let it sit for a little while. I make sure to rinse the IC well.

Cpt_Kirks said:

For cleaning copper, why not just use vinegar?

When my IC gets too grungy, I put five gallons of water and a cup of white vinegar in my keggle, add the IC and bring the water to a quick boil. Cut the heat and let it sit for a little while. I make sure to rinse the IC well.

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Well, this isnt about how to clean copper. This is about a myth perpetuated by the masses. Also, I clean my kettle and pump PBW (OXY) now, through my HERMS system, which contains copper. I am not sure I want to use vinegar in my entire system.

This is about one of the supposed selling points of PBW being that it wont damage copper, which nearly all of us have. We are trying to prove that it doesnt harm copper, thus far there isnt much PROOF to support that it does. All we have are statements made by some brewers who may have never used Oxy.

There are many ways to clean copper, we are trying to prove that Oxyclean doesnt harm it.

Good on you for doing this experiment, Billy Mays. You're like the Mythbusters of beer!

Following up on your other OC thread, I don't typically use any chemicals to clean my IC...I just take to from the BK right into my bucket of wash water on the patio, shake it around a bunch in the water, and let to dry. As for the rest of my stuff, though, I use OC almost exclusively. I have some PBW, but I haven't really seen any kind of advantage in using it.

Evan! said:

Good on you for doing this experiment, Billy Mays. You're like the Mythbusters of beer!

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Except I cannot seem to grow that sweet moustache!

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

For all I know, your beer might taste like crap!

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I think he is just fishing for beer from you...

I love your style too, Pol.

chefmike said:

I think he is just fishing for beer from you...

I love your style too, Pol.

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Just trying to make sense of some of the "common" knowlege, thanks!

The Pol said:

Except I cannot seem to grow that sweet moustache!

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No, but your expertly-trimmed beard and always-high-volume voice more than make up for that.

Evan! said:

No, but your expertly-trimmed beard and always-high-volume voice more than make up for that.

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Ha ha there ya go!

Please read this as a user of OC with copper. I believe it has to do with promoting the oxidation of the copper as a reaction to the ingredients within OC, especially hydrogen peroxide. Palmer goes into a little detail in How to Brew, specially what happens to an oxidized copper to wort contact:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If the oxides come in contact with the mildly acidic wort, the oxides will quickly dissolve, possibly exposing yeast to unhealthy levels of copper during fermentation.[/FONT]

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How to Brew - By John Palmer - Appendix B - Brewing Metallurgy

This may not be what the online warnings are about, but it was the only findings I have made on my own, and since I barely passes chemistry in college, I would take this info with a grain of salt.

Here is the source of the hydo-peroxide content: Chemistry of Oxy Clean - LoveToKnow Cleaning

Ryan_PA said:

Please read this as a user of OC with copper. I believe it has to do with promoting the oxidation of the copper as a reaction to the ingredients within OC, especially hydrogen peroxide. Palmer goes into a little detail in How to Brew, specially what happens to an oxidized copper to wort contact:

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Appendix B - Brewing Metallurgy

This may not be what the online warnings are about, but it was the only findings I have made on my own, and since I barely passes chemistry in college, I would take this info with a grain of salt.

Here is the source of the hydo-peroxide content: Chemistry of Oxy Clean - LoveToKnow Cleaning

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This is well and good, but my copper chiller was always oxidized to a degree, it was only shiney after it came from te wort. So I presume that my yeast were getting a shot of copper? How about those of you using Oxy to clean your chillers?

As stated in the first 10 words of the post, I use oxyclean on my chillzilla after every brew, and I see no reason to stop. While I cannot say there are zero off flavors in my beers, since I rarely ever put them in comps for real reviews, me and my friends have never tasted anything we didn't like. I am sure there are parts of my process that could use more refinement, but I do not think there is any gain to be made by not flushing with OC.

I haven't heard this "it hurts copper" stuff before, just aluminum. The standard answer for any mess in my house has become "oxyclean". Hell we even put it in our laundry. Maybe I can get it setup so it comes out premixed from my shower head, and I can add a third tap to my kitchen sink that emits the sweet nectar.

After I clean my chiller , I soak it in star san for a minute and it comes out shiny as hell. Is this the oxidized layer being munched?

that is what i have understood too, was that the oxiclean made the top layer of copper easly dissolveable in to the wort, you will not see a change in your copper it will stay shiny .
just like the lead pipes used in the past looked the same after wort, beer, ect traved in them ,, but the lead dissolved in to the solution.

shiney copper is copper that does not have a protetive cote of oxid
copper water pipe quicky turn black on the inside, this is an oxide that keeps the copper out of your water. copper poison is a real deal and long term mild over exposures effect is a destroyed liver. its not your IC you should worry about but your health ,shiny copper is bad copper let it turn brown and just clean it with water

here is a snip it from a medical site
"Copper is a heavy metal that is toxic in its unbound form. Almost all of the copper in the body is bound to proteins, thereby reducing the concentration of unbound copper ions to almost zero. Since copper and zinc compete with each other for absorption in the gut, copper toxicity has been the subject of greater concern in recent years. This is primarily due to reduced zinc in the diet and the switch from galvanized to copper water pipes. Acidic water such as rain water, left standing in copper plumbing pipes, can be a source of toxicity when consumed. In prolonged contact with copper cooking utensils, an acidic food or beverage (wort) can dissolve milligram quantities of copper, sufficient to cause acute toxicity symptoms such as self-limited nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. High copper levels, especially when associated with low zinc levels, have been linked to a variety of symptoms and conditions"

So, the argument that it harms copper is false (from the looks of it) But now the argument is that it is unhealthy? Well, now that will be harder for me to quantify, for any of us to quantify one way or another.

I have heard that shiney copper is bad... but that is the thing, my copper in my kettle did NOT turn shiney, it looks like it always has, oxidized.

use oxiclean all the time its great, but i dont use it on copper
i dont want to poison the people who drink my beer

thoes boys a coors that invented pbw may know more that you think

Clayton said:

use oxiclean all the time its great, but i dont use it on copper
i dont want to poison the people who drink my beer

thoes boys a coors that invented pbw may know more that you think

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Yah, how to make money even if you are selling crap beer

Okay, I hear that boiling wort in aluminum will give me alzheimers.

That myth was perpetuated for YEARS... where was the proof. There wasnt any, it was based on the fact that too much aluminum could be linked to alzheimers. But did boiling in aluminum give you a large enough dose?

This is the same... so yeah copper in large enough ammounts is bad for you. But now the question is, is there proof that OxiClean will cause the release of all of this copper into your wort?

What is the difference between Oxi and PBW? Doesnt PBW contain sodium metasilicate, and that is the only real difference between the two? This strong base?

So then the question becomes, does the inclusion of sodium metasilicate make the difference between the supposed safety of PBW and the danger in using Oxi?

I am still awaiting my death from botulism... this is my point.

Well hold on now, what is making the copper shiny? For me, I believe its the star san, not the oxy. I should skip the shiny step, I suppose.

The Pol said:

I am trying to STOP the perpetuating of bad information being passed off as fact.

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everyone knows soaking copper in oxiclean will lead to hot side aeration and oxidation of your beer

Picobrew said:

Well hold on now, what is making the copper shiny? For me, I believe its the star san, not the oxy. I should skip the shiny step, I suppose.

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My Oxi is not making my copper shiney...

Here is what sodium metasilicate (sodium silicate) does. This is the difference between Oxi and PBW.

Corrosion Inhibition
Sodium silicate can be used as a corrosion inhibitor in potable and industrial water. Sodium silicate inhibits corrosion by forming a protective film on metal surfaces that isolates the metal from further corrosive attack. Because soluble silicates are alkaline, moreover, they bring the further benefit of increasing the pH of water. Sodium silicate can be used to inhibit corrosion of cast iron pipes, service lines, and fixtures—to protect the infrastructure and to help water utilities meet the requirements of the lead/copper rule. Selection of silicate for this application depends on the pH and alkalinity of the untreated water.

Now if I owned a big expen sive brewery Id LOVE to have this additive in my cleaner to protect my millions of dollars of plumbing from corrosion. Now, IMHO this does not mean that NOT using PBW and using Oxi or any other cleaner will cause me harm.

AZ_IPA said:

everyone knows soaking copper in oxiclean will lead to hot side aeration and oxidation of your beer

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Well, I wont argue that, that has been proven!