Bottle Sanitizing Question...

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evans5150

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Hello all,

I am a first time poster and just pitched my Nottingham yeast in my first 5 gallon batch EVER yesterday. I have been wanting to do this for a long time and finally decided that this was the time to do it. I am very excited and have just finished reading "Homebrewing for Dummies". I will be getting some of the other books I have seen suggested on here.

My question is this: I have 48 bottles that I need to sanitize. I used chlorine bleach to sanitize all of my other homebrewing items but I am stuck when it comes to the bottles. All of our faucet's in the house will NOT accept a screw on item like a bottle washer. Our biggest sink will only fit about 10 bottles at a time fully submerged and that is the kitchen sink. Does anyone have any suggestions for me to sanitize these bottles correctly?

Thanks,

evans5150
 
3 ideas for ya!


1 go to homedepot and buy a couple 2 or 3 of the Homer Buckets (5 gallon orange) fill with water and drop in your sanitizer and drop the bottles in. each will hold about 15 bottles or more depending on how you drop them in.

2. run them through your dishwasher on rinse cycle with your sanitizer in the dishwasher. I have my hot water turned up pretty high so it works pretty good.
3. ya got a tub. Fill it up and put in your bottles and sanitizer.

hope this helps!

John
 
Might look into a faucet adapter like used for portable dishwashers. It consists of a rubber adapter, clamp and hose.

Also if your kitchen faucet has an aerator, it will come off and has threads typically.
 
Nwcw2001 said:
3 ideas for ya!


1 go to homedepot and buy a couple 2 or 3 of the Homer Buckets (5 gallon orange) fill with water and drop in your sanitizer and drop the bottles in. each will hold about 15 bottles or more depending on how you drop them in.

2. run them through your dishwasher on rinse cycle with your sanitizer in the dishwasher. I have my hot water turned up pretty high so it works pretty good.
3. ya got a tub. Fill it up and put in your bottles and sanitizer.

hope this helps!

John
Click to expand...


Not trying to pick on you, but running them in the dishwasher sometime leaves a residue that you cant see and kills the head on your beer
 
evans5150 said:
Hello all,

I am a first time poster and just pitched my Nottingham yeast in my first 5 gallon batch EVER yesterday. I have been wanting to do this for a long time and finally decided that this was the time to do it. I am very excited and have just finished reading "Homebrewing for Dummies". I will be getting some of the other books I have seen suggested on here.

My question is this: I have 48 bottles that I need to sanitize. I used chlorine bleach to sanitize all of my other homebrewing items but I am stuck when it comes to the bottles. All of our faucet's in the house will NOT accept a screw on item like a bottle washer. Our biggest sink will only fit about 10 bottles at a time fully submerged and that is the kitchen sink. Does anyone have any suggestions for me to sanitize these bottles correctly?

Thanks,

evans5150
Click to expand...


First off, Please stop using bleach. Bleach is something that you dont want your brew to touch. Rinsing bleach off is not enough sometimes. It leaves a residue. Order some pbw (powdered brewery wash) from a homebrew store and get a rubbermaid tub and soak them overnight in a weak solution of 1/2 ounce per gallon. If your soaking them overnight then a strong solution is not needed. Next morning which will be bottling day, run a brush inside the bottle. Doesnt take much with pbw, most of the bottles will be spotless to begin with. Invest in a bottle tree with a sanitizer top. It will be the best investment you make. I have all kind of nice stainless steel equipment and i wouldnt trade that bottle tree and sanitizer top for nothing. Not even a new stainless steel fermenter. Get the iodine sanitizer and all it takes is a 1/4 of a capful of iodine in the bottle sanitize with some water. Press your bottles over it and it shoots sanitizer in your bottle. No rinsing, just go and place the sanitized bottle on the bottle tree and your done
 
usmcruz said:
Not trying to pick on you, but running them in the dishwasher sometime leaves a residue that you cant see and kills the head on your beer
Click to expand...

Really?? I've been running mine through there for every batch. Although my beer doesn't have much head on it, there is some. Maybe this is why . . .
 
ian said:
Really?? I've been running mine through there for every batch. Although my beer doesn't have much head on it, there is some. Maybe this is why . . .
Click to expand...


That is why allot of prestigous micro brewery's handwash there glasses or have a special machine to wash with hot water and sanitizer not powdered soap or harsh chemicals, but putting your bottles in the dishwasher will definately destroy a beer. Think of the residue in your beer bottle like that product anti foam that you use during fermentation to keep the foam down, same principle. Cheers
 
usmcruz said:
First off, Please stop using bleach. Bleach is something that you dont want your brew to touch. Rinsing bleach off is not enough sometimes. It leaves a residue. Order some pbw (powdered brewery wash) from a homebrew store and get a rubbermaid tub and soak them overnight in a weak solution of 1/2 ounce per gallon. If your soaking them overnight then a strong solution is not needed. Next morning which will be bottling day, run a brush inside the bottle. Doesnt take much with pbw, most of the bottles will be spotless to begin with. Invest in a bottle tree with a sanitizer top. It will be the best investment you make. I have all kind of nice stainless steel equipment and i wouldnt trade that bottle tree and sanitizer top for nothing. Not even a new stainless steel fermenter. Get the iodine sanitizer and all it takes is a 1/4 of a capful of iodine in the bottle sanitize with some water. Press your bottles over it and it shoots sanitizer in your bottle. No rinsing, just go and place the sanitized bottle on the bottle tree and your done
Click to expand...

I'm diluting the bleach at 1 tablespoon per gallon of water for cleaning all of the other items...not the bottles. I was told by my local homebrewing shop to hand wash all of my items in this diluted solution and then let it dry for one hour. By this time all of the bleach fumes are gone and there is no bleach left to touch the beer (we live in a VERY low humidity environment so things dry FAST up here). Do you think it would work if I got a large tub and soaked the bottles in that low solution of bleach for about an hour?

Also...I'm confused with your statements above. Are you saying to get both the PBW and the iodine as well as the bottle tree? I like the idea of the bottle tree and will need to call my local homebrewer to see if they carry one.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions.

evans5150
 
evans5150 said:
I'm diluting the bleach at 1 tablespoon per gallon
Click to expand...
If you're going to use bleach for sanitizing, 1 teaspoon of bleach per gallon of water is the proper dilution for no-rinse sanitizing (this according to Papazian). I personally wouldn't use bleach without rinsing, but many do without problems.

The best solution, IMHO of course, is to use a good detergent, such as PBW, for cleaning, and a no rinse sanitizer, such as iodophor, for sanitizing. You can certainly use bleach for a lot of the light cleaning chores, but you need to remember to keep it away from your stainless steel. For cleaning tough stuff, nothing beats PBW. For removing labels (and cleaning tough stuff too), oxyclean is good, but you've got to remember to rinse the crap out of it.
 
As usual I agree with most of what's been said here. I soak my bottles in one-step solution (one-step is a cleanser), for a couple of hours, peel off the labels, scrub, rinse, and then soak in an iodophor solution for about two minutes. Then I turn the bottles upside down in boxes and let them drip out for a few minutes before I bottle.

As for the dishwasher, I think it should be fine if you don't use soap. Just do a short dry run to rinse out any soap residue that might be left from a previous load, and then load it up with bottles. The water usually gets really hot in a dishwasher, and 155F is all that's really needed to destroy most bacteria.
 
evans5150 said:
I'm diluting the bleach at 1 tablespoon per gallon of water for cleaning all of the other items...not the bottles. I was told by my local homebrewing shop to hand wash all of my items in this diluted solution and then let it dry for one hour. By this time all of the bleach fumes are gone and there is no bleach left to touch the beer (we live in a VERY low humidity environment so things dry FAST up here). Do you think it would work if I got a large tub and soaked the bottles in that low solution of bleach for about an hour?

Also...I'm confused with your statements above. Are you saying to get both the PBW and the iodine as well as the bottle tree? I like the idea of the bottle tree and will need to call my local homebrewer to see if they carry one.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions.

evans5150
Click to expand...

Bleach was good back in the days when nothing else was available now its the worst thing you can use. Its not the fumes you should be worried about, its the residue, and a dishwasher is not effective in spraying up inside the bottles no matter what the temp. Yes get the pbw for the cleaning the inside and outside of the bottle, and the iodine is the sanitizer. Clean then sanitize. Make sure you ask your local homebrew store for the sanitizer top for the bottle tree. There are allot of ways to get your bottles and equipment cleaned and sanitized, but id rather not set you up for failure. Lets do it the right way the first time. Cheers
 
What i do is wash all of the bottle w/ a bruch thats on a stick (got it w/ my kit) then i but hot water and bleach in the sink and then put 4 bottles in at a time. Wait a few minutes make sure that the water got in side. I then dump it out and rinse them and set them to drip dry.
 
My method FWIW

1) Rinse bottles. Put 1/2 cap Idophor in dishwasher and run a rinse cycle.

2) Fill bottling bucket with 3 gallons warm water and 1 cap Idophor. Submerge bottles, 5 or 6 at a time and let soak for a couple minutes.

3) Remove bottles from bucket, drain bottles back into bucket and place bottles upside down in now sanitized dishwasher racks.

Repeat 2 & 3 until all bottles are sanitized. This lets all the solution drain out of the bottles and they dry out nicely. Also serves to sanitize the bottling bucket at the same time. I do however rinse out the bottling bucket well before I fill it for bottling. No problems with this technique so far.
 
If you people feel that bleach and the dishwasher method are good methods to clean and sanitize your bottles then by all means have at it, but you wont find a real brewer using bleach and sticking there bottles in where bacteria thrives (dishwasher). So drink up
 
Big breweries don't use bleach because it is not good to let it soak in the stainless. Who does use bleach? Restaraunts, food processers, swimming pools, water treatrment plants, every janitor in the world. Probably a million times as much as iodine. Heat is used more than iodine too- even Usmcruz boils his wort.

I don't think it's a matter of any method being better, so long as you use appropriate technique/ soak time. I haven't poisoned my friends yet, but if I do, it's more likely to be alcohol poisoning, not biologics.
 
Bleach will destroy SS in a fairly short time if left in contact. That is why you do not ever use bleach to clean SS. That said, I do not like it around my beer anyway, just too messy, corossive and slippery if you spill some on my tile floor.
 
smorris said:
My method FWIW

1) Rinse bottles. Put 1/2 cap Idophor in dishwasher and run a rinse cycle.

2) Fill bottling bucket with 3 gallons warm water and 1 cap Idophor. Submerge bottles, 5 or 6 at a time and let soak for a couple minutes.

3) Remove bottles from bucket, drain bottles back into bucket and place bottles upside down in now sanitized dishwasher racks.

Repeat 2 & 3 until all bottles are sanitized. This lets all the solution drain out of the bottles and they dry out nicely. Also serves to sanitize the bottling bucket at the same time. I do however rinse out the bottling bucket well before I fill it for bottling. No problems with this technique so far.
Click to expand...
If you are using the standard BTF Iodophor, you aren't mixing at a sufficient rate to sanitize effectively. The standard measure of Iodophor is 1 capful for 2.5 gallons to get you an effective 12.5 ppm ratio.

Your dishwasher uses more than 2.5 gallons. Your 3 gallons in your bucket is also too much for proper sanitizing. You may have been OK, but sooner or later it may catch up to you.
 
casebrew said:
Big breweries don't use bleach because it is not good to let it soak in the stainless. Who does use bleach? Restaraunts, food processers, swimming pools, water treatrment plants, every janitor in the world. Probably a million times as much as iodine. Heat is used more than iodine too- even Usmcruz boils his wort.

I don't think it's a matter of any method being better, so long as you use appropriate technique/ soak time. I haven't poisoned my friends yet, but if I do, it's more likely to be alcohol poisoning, not biologics.
Click to expand...
Well.....

Having worked in a restraunt, I can testify that they don't use bleach all that much. Most have dishwashers that use pressurized steam to sanitize. Swimming pools and water treatment plants don't use "bleach" but a form of chlorine distantly related to bleach. Most janitors don't use bleach anymore either, but other chemicals. Bleach is still a good "all around" cleaner, but it's use is much less than what it used to be.
 
usmcruz said:
Not trying to pick on you, but running them in the dishwasher sometime leaves a residue that you cant see and kills the head on your beer
Click to expand...



Only if you use any kind of dishwasher soap or sanitizer. I have been running mine through the dishwasher cycle (water only) for 5 years and never, ever had a problem.


loop
 
usmcruz said:
If you people feel that bleach and the dishwasher method are good methods to clean and sanitize your bottles then by all means have at it, but you wont find a real brewer using bleach and sticking there bottles in where bacteria thrives (dishwasher). So drink up
Click to expand...


With all due respect, don't be a d1ck and say things like "you won't find a real brewer using bleach".

loop
 
loopmd said:
With all due respect, don't be a d1ck and say things like "you won't find a real brewer using bleach".

loop
Click to expand...


I must of hit a sensitive spot with you. Next time be a little more educated, open up a thesaurus and find a better word to insult me with and not from your limited vocabulary skills. You wouldnt talk to me in person like that Im sure of it, so dont do it in this forum. People who are serious brewers dont use bleach, sorry to burst your bubble. Your probably sore, because you brew and probably have a stock pile of it, because your too cheap to order the right stuff. I once used bleach, but that was a time when I didnt know any better. You know better and still use it. Cheapo!!
 
loopmd said:
Only if you use any kind of dishwasher soap or sanitizer. I have been running mine through the dishwasher cycle (water only) for 5 years and never, ever had a problem.


loop
Click to expand...


Five years of doing it the wrong way, I guess you cant teach an old dog new tricks. Drink up
 
usmcruz said:
People who are serious brewers dont use bleach
Click to expand...
Well, Papazian recommends using bleach, as both cleanser and no-rinse sanitizer. His information is certainly dated, but there are still a lot of serious brewers who follow his recommendations, without any problems. I don't myself, but then I'm not serious.

As a matter of fact, there have been many discussion on this subject right here, and the fact is, many people still use bleach...some with much more experience than yourself. Again, I'm not one of them, but I'm certainly not going to insult someone just because they have a different way of doing things.
 
What do you folks do with your used sanitizer solution? I water the lawn with my chlorine solution, do you think iodine is safe for the flora?
 
El Pistolero said:
Well, Papazian recommends using bleach, as both cleanser and no-rinse sanitizer. His information is certainly dated, but there are still a lot of serious brewers who follow his recommendations, without any problems. I don't myself, but then I'm not serious.

As a matter of fact, there have been many discussion on this subject right here, and the fact is, many people still use bleach...some with much more experience than yourself. Again, I'm not one of them, but I'm certainly not going to insult someone just because they have a different way of doing things.
Click to expand...

First of all read the posts before you put your two sense in. I believe he called me a d**k. Second, how do you know what experience I have. Papazian info is outdated and allot of stuff in his book need to be revised. If all of your brewing rests on his book, then i suggest you keep buying books until you gain the correct knowledge. Bleach as a no rinse sanitizer? Dude just stop talking, because you just about dropped everyones I.Q. in this forum by ten points. The people that still use bleach, dont know any better, and if they do know better, they definately shouldnt be pushing there incorrect ways of doing things on others who are fresh and trying to learn.
 
I didn't start this thread so that people could argue. I was hoping that this was a forum where people would "come together" for the love of brews and brewing. I love beer and am just getting started in brewing my own. I definitely appreciate ALL of the suggestions in this thread. I was told by my local homebrewer to use a solution of 1 tbsp of bleach per gallon of water. It is used as a cleanser and a sanitizer. The owner of the shop that told me this has been brewing for 25 years. He is also a National Judge in the Beer Judge Certification Program. He is also a leader and participant in the Home Wine and Beer Trade Association. I'm not saying that his info is the be all to end all when it comes to it....but his info along with other info here makes sense to me. I will start with bleach and move up if I notice any problems. I like to have options. Thanks all...and please stop the nonsense of name calling and backlashing. ENJOY A HOMEBREW!!

evans5150
 
Ok, ok, ok. Hold on here people.

I joined this forum because when I joined it everyone's opinion was respected. I started out with only info I got from Papazian, and through talking with these people I gained a lot of knowledge I don't know where else I would have gotten. Some people use bleach. Some people call people d1cks. One of these types of people are welcome here. One of them is a d1ck. Get it?
 
I've been using bleach for years. Pour enough in that it makes my hand stink. I'd try idophor but I can't get it here. The one thing I do HATE about bleach is avoiding getting it on anything I don't want bleached..like black jeans or t-shirts or..the carpet. I once put an empty carboy down on a rug to open a door. The next day there was a white ring on the rug... Good thing it was one of those long runners you put doen to protect a section of carpet!
 
rewster451 said:
Ok, ok, ok. Hold on here people.

I joined this forum because when I joined it everyone's opinion was respected. I started out with only info I got from Papazian, and through talking with these people I gained a lot of knowledge I don't know where else I would have gotten. Some people use bleach. Some people call people d1cks. One of these types of people are welcome here. One of them is a d1ck. Get it?
Click to expand...


If this was a shot at me, then **** off
 
I've used bleach for 14 years for brewing. I ALWAYS rinse with hot water. Sanitize in HOT water, Rinse with HOT water. I don't really trust no rinse with bleach and I tend to use more than the 1 teaspoon to 1 gallon solution. If the water feels slippery you have used way to much though and that is very bad and will leave a residue. A stronger solution will sanitise faster, but will need rinsing. I use a bottle washer and our hot water gets up to 145F. The hot water rinses out chlorine much better.

Personally I'd like to try idophor but it's hard to get in my local area. I forgot to ask the brewpub where I've started getting grains if he could sell me some. I'll have to remember to ask him next time I see him.

Either method if done CORRECTLY will work fine. Don't see what all the bitchin' is about.
 
Denny's Brew said:
I've used bleach for 14 years for brewing. I ALWAYS rinse with hot water. Sanitize in HOT water, Rinse with HOT water. I don't really trust no rinse with bleach and I tend to use more than the 1 teaspoon to 1 gallon solution. If the water feels slippery you have used way to much though and that is very bad and will leave a residue. A stronger solution will sanitise faster, but will need rinsing. I use a bottle washer and our hot water gets up to 145F. The hot water rinses out chlorine much better.

Personally I'd like to try idophor but it's hard to get in my local area. I forgot to ask the brewpub where I've started getting grains if he could sell me some. I'll have to remember to ask him next time I see him.

Either method if done CORRECTLY will work fine. Don't see what all the bitchin' is about.
Click to expand...


I made a simple comment, and everyone gets insulted like a bunch of woman. I have used bleach too, but after a couple of batches that i rinsed out about 4 or 5 times, i had the bleach leach through. I made the comment that real brewers dont use bleach. What i meant was that you will never find bleach in any brewery or winery and thats for a reason. You try to teach people the right way and they get all sensitive like its a personal attack. If people are this sensitive about there homebrewing then maybe they need to seek A.A. Its suppose to be a hobby. Your right I dont see what all the bitchin is about. I use the idophor and its wonderful. Just a tip, if you get star san phosphoric acid sanitizer, it leaves a film of sanitizer on your equipment so you dont have to sanitize on brew day. I sanitize my bottles and equipment with it and dont have to sanitize on brew day, and not even bottling day. Just a quick rinse with some water and your ready to go.
 
usmcruz said:
I made a simple comment, and everyone gets insulted like a bunch of woman. I have used bleach too, but after a couple of batches that i rinsed out about 4 or 5 times, i had the bleach leach through. I made the comment that real brewers dont use bleach. What i meant was that you will never find bleach in any brewery or winery and thats for a reason. You try to teach people the right way and they get all sensitive like its a personal attack. If people are this sensitive about there homebrewing then maybe they need to seek A.A. Its suppose to be a hobby. Your right I dont see what all the bitchin is about. I use the idophor and its wonderful. Just a tip, if you get star san phosphoric acid sanitizer, it leaves a film of sanitizer on your equipment so you dont have to sanitize on brew day. I sanitize my bottles and equipment with it and dont have to sanitize on brew day, and not even bottling day. Just a quick rinse with some water and your ready to go.
Click to expand...


Just a reminder, you are the one who started this off with a personal attack. It would have been wonderful if originally you would have made the comment "you would never find bleach in any brewery or winery". That's a good, constructive comment. Don't know if it's true, but it's a good comment. Just no need for comments like "your not a true brewer...."

As for everyone's I.Q. and taking an insult like a woman, well, when you become a member of MENSA, then we'll talk. Until then, Semper Fi!

loop
 
Boy, did I get in on this late. Sounds like you all are having quite a good time. Insults and trash talk and flaming, oh my.

If I was a beginning brewer, and someone told me (calmly), that I could use bleach as a sanitizer, but that I would have to rinse it several times to reduce the smell, or, I could use Iodophor (or Starsan or whatever) and not rinse at all, I never would have used bleach as a sanitizer, ever. No rinse sanitizers are effective, fairly cheap (no, not as cheap as bleach, but we're talking pennies here), a huge time saver, and a real plus on the contamination reduction part of brewing. There can't be any argument about rinsing after using bleach. I don't even like the smell after rinsing with tap water because of the chlorine content. Plus, your rinse water is definitely not sanitary, so rinsing does seem to be a bit counter productive. Do people get away with it? Of course, otherwise no one would be using bleach. But why not take prudent steps to eliminate every variable that you can, plus save time? No rinse, baby, the only way to go.
 
loopmd said:
Just a reminder, you are the one who started this off with a personal attack. It would have been wonderful if originally you would have made the comment "you would never find bleach in any brewery or winery". That's a good, constructive comment. Don't know if it's true, but it's a good comment. Just no need for comments like "your not a true brewer...."

As for everyone's I.Q. and taking an insult like a woman, well, when you become a member of MENSA, then we'll talk. Until then, Semper Fi!

loop
Click to expand...

Thats great, leave the killing to me, and you could bash somebody with some your long drawn out words that makes you feel smart and everyone else tired.
Become a member at my club first
UNITED STATES MARINE CORP
Until then dont say semper fi, when you dont mean it, and havent earned the right to say it let alone type it. You may be smarter than me and a member of mensa the top 2 % of high I.Q. scores, but i would whip your ***. So if thats all you got to say to me then lets squash it. Im here to teach and learn not to get into some pissing contest with you or anyone else. I apologize if i offended you, but there are ways of talking to people without starting an argument. PM me if you need to directly solve something, and I will be more than happy to obligue. You see in the corp we usually take the problems to the tree line, and later on were drinking together. This is how it is, so i consider us drinking right now. get it
 
Does star san stain or discolor if splashed on clothing?
I'm guessing idophor will stain?

I'm brewing in a basement suite with a rather small kitchen and tend to splash sanitizer by accident on things.

Have to boil outrside in the friggen cold since the smell of boiling wort bothers upstairs. One of these days I'll have my own brewing room...
 
Denny's Brew said:
Does star san stain or discolor if splashed on clothing?
I'm guessing idophor will stain?

I'm brewing in a basement suite with a rather small kitchen and tend to splash sanitizer by accident on things.

Have to boil outrside in the friggen cold since the smell of boiling wort bothers upstairs. One of these days I'll have my own brewing room...
Click to expand...

Yes idophor will stain hands and clothing and the star san will mess up clothes. It will actually eat holes in clothes, but its a food grade phosphoric acid. If you got it on your clothes wash immediatly and no harm will be done. I feel ya bro, i had to brew in a small 1 bedroom apartment, but luckily the people upstairs were heavy drinkers so they said it was like potpourrii to them.lol I have to brew outside as well at my new place here in guam. My wife hates beer, but i will turn her one of these day's
 
Denny's Brew said:
Does star san stain or discolor if splashed on clothing?
I'm guessing idophor will stain?

I'm brewing in a basement suite with a rather small kitchen and tend to splash sanitizer by accident on things.

Have to boil outrside in the friggen cold since the smell of boiling wort bothers upstairs. One of these days I'll have my own brewing room...
Click to expand...

it sure will. stained many a good brew-t w/ iodaphor spalshing all over the place. my wife told me i look like a 2 yr old in a wash tube w/ that stuff :D
 
tnlandsailor said:
Boy, did I get in on this late. Sounds like you all are having quite a good time. Insults and trash talk and flaming, oh my.

If I was a beginning brewer, and someone told me (calmly), that I could use bleach as a sanitizer, but that I would have to rinse it several times to reduce the smell, or, I could use Iodophor (or Starsan or whatever) and not rinse at all, I never would have used bleach as a sanitizer, ever. No rinse sanitizers are effective, fairly cheap (no, not as cheap as bleach, but we're talking pennies here), a huge time saver, and a real plus on the contamination reduction part of brewing. There can't be any argument about rinsing after using bleach. I don't even like the smell after rinsing with tap water because of the chlorine content. Plus, your rinse water is definitely not sanitary, so rinsing does seem to be a bit counter productive. Do people get away with it? Of course, otherwise no one would be using bleach. But why not take prudent steps to eliminate every variable that you can, plus save time? No rinse, baby, the only way to go.
Click to expand...

hey brother, where in knoxville tn do you live. My uncle was working with the tennessee vol. His name is mike curcio, do you know him. He played arena ball for tennessee and his wife cindy was cheerleading for them. Plus he would really like to try some homebrew. He doesnt believe me that its the best beer out there.
 

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